[TimeStar] Response: Conspiracy vs Manifest Destiny globalized

Mon Jan 10 22:19:45 EST 2005

Hi Krsanna,
    I agree with you about the American people being willing to 'get' 
what it can, and the conscience of the American people hasn't been to 
great in that regard. Americans have to start to take a look at what 
they are willing to have done in their name, and start to be willing to 
know the real story, rather than the one they are being fed by those 
that seek to paint a rosy picture, in order to get some of those less 
willing to hurt others people, to gain their support.
     I also, believe as I mentioned earlier, that many people really do 
believe what they are being told and are very sincere about that. I 
have spoken to many of these folks, and I believe they are sincere. 
Since this is the case, then there is some saving grace in the future 
of America if these people can be awakened to the truth of what has 
been being done behind their backs. If that can be done, we might have 
a real renissance here. Yes, we have a lot of Americans that are 
willing to hurt others if they can forward their desires. I personally 
believe that there are enough people in this country that would jump on 
the band wagon to stop the US's terrorist activities in foreign and US 
lands, if they truly knew the real deal. Much Love, Steve

On Jan 10, 2005, at 12:17 PM, timestar at timestar.org wrote:

> Part of your reading is correct.  Part of it is not.
>
> I am saying that the American people have knowingly participated in
> orchestrated efforts to gain control of land and resources and used
> genocide when necessary since the first wave of European immigrants 
> after
> the Revolution starting around 1790.  Federal documents contain 
> numerous
> justifications for statutes ranging from genocide of Indians to take 
> their
> land in the 19th century and confiscating land and property of the 
> Japanese
> in the 20th century.
>
> Many Americans still believe that the taking of Indian lands was
> justsified, because Indians were a conquered people.  This is factually
> incorrect, in that Native Americans militarily defeated the U.S. and 
> forced
> he federal government into treaties in many cases.
>
> These efforts are perfectly acceptable to the American psyche as a 
> whole
> and required little deceit to make these illegal efforts acceptable to 
> the
> American people.  This is a different than your interpretation.
>
> My intent is to say that as long as mainstream America gains advantages
> from taking land and resources and, in some cases, genocide, these have
> been acceptable to use against other nations.  Treaties signed by 
> Native
> Americans recognized most tribes as sovereign nations, because that's 
> what
> they are.  The battle to deny that sovereignty continues with the 
> agreement
> and support of large numbers of mainstream Americans.
>
> Secrecy in conspiracies to accomplish these illegal actions has not 
> been
> necessary, because it has been public policy widely support by many.
>
> The Iraqi invasion was a functional extension of Manifest Destiny.  
> Even if
> the invasion was not specifically called Manifest Destiny, it 
> functioned in
> much the same manner only on a global scope.  A number of Native 
> Americans
> recognized similarities between the Iraqi invasion and the tactics 
> employed
> to implement Manifest Destiny before the invasion and published
> announcements to this effect in newspapers in 2001.
>
> Based on similarities between the Iraqi invasion and Manifest Destiny,
> gaining access to land in Iraq was predictable.  Wolfewitz talked about
> gaining land bases in Iraq to enable the U.S. to move bases out of 
> Saudi
> Arabia as a key objective AFTER the invasion was accomplished.  Bear in
> mind that Native Americans had predicted this move BEFORE the invasion
> based on historical precedent.
>
> Two hundred (200) years of history support this theory, and I will be 
> happy
> to provide some sources.
>
> In view of 200 years of public policies openly approved by Americans,
> deceit and secrecy to accomplish objectives of this nature are NOT
> necessary.  Therefore, conspiracies are not essential to accomplishing
> these objectives with the approval of many Americans.
>
> The roar over conspiratorial hostility waged against the American 
> people,
> who have widely approved of similar actions against others, is a little
> naive, not to mention self-serving, in view of this long history in 
> America.
>
> That's the first part of what I was saying.
>
> Krsanna
>
> Turning
>
> Hi Krsanna,
>     If I read you correctly, you are saying that orchestrated attacks 
> on
> the American people by its government are not conspiracy theories but
> rather part of its Manifest destiny to take over what ever it wants in
> the world.
>      Well, I would say that they are truly different ideas in the minds
> of Americans, and most Americans, if they were to hear that the
> government was willing to kill them, or their friends for some turf in
> another country, that they would not accept that as the country's
> 'manifest destiny.' Manifest destiny was O.K. as long as you were
> killing 'savages' or 'foreigners', but when it comes to killing White
> Christian Americans, they would say, "No way Jose."
>      I think I understand the point you were trying to make, (which was
> that American's are willing to kill others, if they can get something
> for themselves out of it and not be hurt.) Unfortunately, there is a
> lot of truth to that. As far as the use of the term 'conspiracy theory'
> in reference to 911, I would say that the government is served to
> cover-up the crime it has committed, by using that term to deflect from
> the truth of what it has done on 9/11. It's objectives are/were control
> of people, land resources and the power that comes with it. We
> shouldn't waste our energy debating over terms where 911 is concerned.
> It is beyond any reasonable doubt that the corporate secret US
> government pulled off 911, and that the Arabs, like the Jews in WWII,
> were the pawns to allow the take over of a whole lot of other people's
> things, other than the Jews. Much Love, Steve
>
> On Jan 9, 2005, at 2:11 PM, TimeStar wrote:
>
>> This email from Rich lays out his theory for the motives that prompted
>> the U.S. government and global elite to orchestrate 911.  Again, this
>> is a distraction, but it serves a purpose.  Rich assumes Americans
>> have been duped into securing oil fields and advancing the New World
>> Order, and that a conspiracy was necessary to incite The People to
>> these onerous acts. 
>>   
>>
>> A survey of American history demonstrates that conspiracy has never
>> been necessary to accomplish these objectives.  Although, conspiracy
>> theories may serve the purpose of excusing the obvious behavior of The
>> People of America by portraying them as dupes with no responsiblity
>> for what the government and global elite have tricked them into
>> believing.  The consistency of American behavior and beliefs over 200
>> years suggests that something more powerful than a conspiracy of the
>> federal government and global elite drives them; albeit, the
>> government and elite may capitalize on the predispositions in American
>> behavior for centuries. 
>>   
>> If you listen carefully to the rhetoric of many Americans, it sounds
>> like they didn't need anyone to incite them into a war in the Mideast
>> to secure oil fields and provide impetus for the Patriot Acts. 
>> EXPANSIONIST OBJECTIVES HAVE BEEN ACCEPTABLE TO MANY AMERICANS FOR TWO
>> HUNDRED YEARS.  Study the Amistad case available on the Supreme
>> Court's web site.  Listen to what Americans talk about in daily
>> conversations. 
>>   
>> The American public advocated securing oil fields in Oklahoma and
>> taking Indian children from their homes to Christianize them, forcing
>> them to abandon their land, 100 years ago.  These are acceptable
>> objectives for many Americans that do not require any impetus from the
>> global elite.  The outcomes of the Iraqi war were predictable from the
>> beginning.  I know, because I predicted them. 
>>   
>> Rich forgot the part about securing land bases in the Middle East as a
>> major objective of the Iraqi war.  Wolfewitz talked about this
>> objective in an interview with a major publication after the invasion,
>> I believe it was Vanity Fair.  The U.S. needed land and Iraq was the
>> easiest to take and was stragetic to military purposes. 
>>   
>> Americans have never needed to be tricked into taking take land they
>> wanted when it was owned by somebody else.  The federal policy to do
>> this used to be called Manifest Destiny, and it was a popular federal
>> policy for a long time before 911 happened. 
>>   
>> The fact that so many Americans didn't give a damn when they learned
>> that false information was used to justify the Iraqi invasion supports
>> my theory on this.  Many Americans already believed that laws like the
>> Patriot Act was necessary and thought the Bill of Rights was too
>> liberal before 911. 
>>   
>> If it is true that the behavior of large numbers of Americans has not
>> required conspiracies to incite it, then what is the driving force for
>> this behavior over hundreds of years. 
>>   
>> A brief survey of history points to the Christian right since millions
>> of illiterate Christians immigrated to America within 40 years after
>> the American revolution.  Hard data on the influence of illiteracy and
>> institutionalized Christianity in America is abundantly available in
>> America's legislation. 
>>   
>> Krsanna
>>  
>>  
>> RICH WROTE:
>>  
>> It's about time someone said it loud and clear: The events of 9-11
>> were planned, orchestrated and carried out by the U.S. government and
>> the global elite to insite Americans into a long-planned war in the
>> mideast to secure oil fields, to provide and impetous for the passage
>> of the long planned "Patriot Acts" and the consolidation of government
>> agencies (FBI, military, etc.), and advance the  "New World
>> Order"--global tyranny for the financial elite.
>>
>> Let me know if you'd like to see any of several documentaries that
>> prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the official story is a
>> monumental lie (I'm in Missoula). Meanwhile, see
>> www.fromthewilderness.com and/or www.infowars.com to further your
>> education.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Rich
>> richangell2 at yahoo.fr
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